Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour Hosted by Andy Jones KDVS 90.3FM Davis, California Show date: 2001.Dec.05 Transcribed by: Bill Kendrick Andy: And this Doctor Andy of "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." Thank you for joining us this afternoon, I'm excited to offer you an interview with a bevy of members of the Linux Users' Group of Davis (LUGOD). We'll also talk, over this course of this hour, about "Ginger," also known as "IT," also known as "Segway." We will read some listener mail, enjoy some winter poems, and take your request for your favorite famous poems. If you'd like to be part of the program, you can start dialing now at 530-752-2777, and right after Ray Charles, we'll hear more about the Linux Users' Group of Davis... here, on "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." [ musical interlude ] Andy: We're back on "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour," and I'm pleased to have in the studio this afternoon three members of the L.U.G.of D., including the president of LUGOD, one Mr. Peter J. Salzman - say hello Pete. Pete: Hello Andy. Andy: We also have Bill Kendrick, who is the Public Relations Director. Say hi Bill. Bill: Good afternoon. Andy: And we have Melissa, and you are the official secretary for the organization, is that correct? Melissa: ??? Andy: OK, welcome all three of you to the show. Now, the Linux Users Group is known for many of us who follow technology, at least in the Davis area, as really one of the most active and proactive groups in the public. Certainly, there's a lot of interest in the university in Linux, and in the L.U.G.of D., which we'll call "LUGOD" throughout the rest of the show. But I've noticed that whereas your group is very supported by the university in various ways, by membership mostly, it's not really affiliated with university, it's an independent organization. I'm hoping that one of you can tell me how LUGOD got started, and why it got started. Pete: Well actually, I started it. What happened was I'm a physicist (I'm getting a PhD in physics), and I was running quantum simulations, and my program runs maybe a week, maybe two weeks at a time. I was running Windows, and it was frustrating because Windows would crash, maybe a day or two into my program, and I wasn't getting anywhere with my research. Andy: I see. Pete: So, I was really frustrated, and someone told me about something called "Linux" which was supposed to have been a more stable operating system. At this point, I was desperate because I was making no headway with my dissertation. So I installed it, not really knowing what it was about or what its capabilities were. All I knew was my programs would probably finish under Linux. So I installed it, and it was miraculous. It was wonderful; it was more than I ever expected. I expected to see just text, I wasn't expecting graphics, games, all sorts of fun stuff that you normally associate with computers. There were setbacks - it's a hard operating system to use - so I went on the 'net searching for other people who had Linux, and that's how I met Bill Kendrick, and together we started the Linux Users' Group of Davis. Andy: Excellent. So, it really came out of your research in theoretical physics, and at least you had someone to blame in your inability to finish your dissertation. You could blame it on Microsoft, as many of us do on many other matters. So, about when did you two (and we're chatting - that's Pete J. Salzman who just spoke), when did the two of you form [LUGOD]? Bill: January 1999. Andy: January 99. And, in terms of the size of the organization, how many members do you have now? Bill: About 250. Andy: 250 - so that's a surprisingly large number, I think, for a group that's really devoted to a system that many listeners to this show might not know too much about. Where did you find all of these Linux enthusiasts? Pete: They literally came out of the woodwork. We get, maybe 10 people every meeting who just show up wanting to know more about Linux. They've heard about this phenomenon. They just would like to see it in action. We advertise pretty aggressively. We get people as far away from- Melissa: Yuba City. Pete: Yuba City. Right, Yuba City. Bill: San Jose. Pete: San Jose. Sacto. Actually, one guy who participates in our mailing lists is from Chicago. Andy: Really? Pete: Yeah. He thinks our group is a wonderful support network, and likes being on our mailing lists. Andy: Sure. Well certainly the group has an impressive website. Remind us what the URL for that site is... Bill: LUGOD.org Andy: LUGOD.org. And you can also link to that from the website of "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour," which is www.CultureLover.com. Did you have any qualms about putting the word 'god' in the name of your organization. I know that you're all pretty fanatical- Bill: Why do you ask? Andy: -and that you probably go door to door asking people to join, and some people get the wrong impression if you keep talking about "LUGOD." Bill: Only one person has ever taken offense, and he's one of our most prominent members. Andy: So he brings it up every meeting? Bill: No, no, no... He brought it up once, and from then- I mean, we said we're not trying to be blasphemous or anything, just "Group of Davis," it just fits. Andy: Sure, it works. Bill: It was either that or "DLUG." Melissa: Actually, it's really the "LUG-OD." Andy: The "LUG-OD?" Melissa: There's a tradition of "Linux User Group" is a common naming convention, so there's the Silicon Valley Linux User Group (SVLUG), and there's BALUG, the Bay Area LUG. Pete: It should be "LUG-OD." Melissa: Yeah, "LUG-OD." The "god" is purely accidental. Andy: OK. Well, you know many people have said that about God appearing in their poetry: you never know where God will show up next. Pete: It just pops up. Andy: Certainly. Now, so Peter J. Salzman, you were just telling us about your complicated theoretical physics experiments connected to the research of your dissertation, and I'm thinking that most of the listeners of this show really aren't theoretical physicists. Why should they care about Linux? You know, why would Linux be important to the lay-computer-user? Pete: Well, when all is said and done, I wasn't really using Linux for physics in particular, what I was using it for was the fact that it's stable; it doesn't crash. My program had to run for a week/two weeks. So for me, the most important thing was stability. Any person who runs Windows knows what I'm talking about: the system crashes, it's flaky. All sorts of weird things happen - people lose data. That stuff simply doesn't happen on Linux. If you want me to give you reasons why people should care about Linux, there's almost an endless number of them. First of all it's free. You're not paying for anything. Not only is the operating system free, but the tools that you get are also free. Just about every Windows user has Paint Shop Pro, for instance, a pirated copy of Paint Shop Pro. Bill: Or PhotoShop. Pete: Or PhotoShop. Wouldn't it be nice to say "I'm not breaking any laws by using this software"? Well Linux has something very similar to Paint Shop Pro and Illustrator, and all these programs. They're just as powerful. In many cases they're even more powerful. Bill: Indeed. Totally. Melissa: Because they're built by the users. Pete: Built by people using them. And they're completely free. That's a pretty powerful reason to use Linux, in of itself. The other thing is Linux deals with hardware at a much lower level, so if you want spend the time, you can actually go, at that low level, and tweak your hardware, and get the most out of your hardware. All of times what Windows does is it finds a common denominator that will work for a broad range of hardware. With Linux you can tailor your system and really tweak the hardware to give you the maximum performance. For people who like to tweak things, and poke things, and just really get their hands dirty, it's really a nice operating system to work with. Andy: Really, who doesn't love to tweak. And so you're finding that your able to depend upon the labor of volunteer enthusiasts like yourselves who are not driven by a hope to build the killer app. that will make them a million dollars, but rather a kind of commitment to a community and a commitment to an operating system that maybe has more enthusiasts than dollars behind it. Pete: That's another good point. If you have a company, and you're going to spend say 5 million dollars on an IT solution, if that company goes under, you're sunk - you have no place to turn. With Linux, there's no "company" to go under. These people work on the operating system out of their love for it. Bill: I like to compare it to pizza. Andy: OK. Please, we always appreciate metaphors and similes on "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." Why, Bill Kendrick, is Linux like pizza? Bill: Well, if Round Table or Pizza Hut went under, that wouldn't mean that you wouldn't be able to go somewhere and buy pizza. And with Linux, if Red Hat or Corel or SuSE - if these companies go away, or if the companies providing Open Source software go away, that doesn't mean that the software's gone. You can still get the software, you can still put it together, and it will continue growing. Andy: So it's almost like the "idea" of pizza. Or if one person has the recipe for pizza, then pizza can be made, even if it's not gonna be Round Table. Bill: Exactly. Pete brought up the word "free," and "free" is kind of an ambiguous word in English. People came up with the term "Free as in Beer," and "Free as in Speech." When you say "free," most people think "Free as in Beer," as in you don't have to pay money for it. So you think shareware programs, you think free downloads on the Internet. With "Free as in Speech," which is what Linux and Open Source software is, you get the actual code behind it, which means you can manipulate it, other people can manipulate it, base new software on it, and it kind of lives on. Like you said, it's like the recipe of pizza. Versus getting handed a free pizza, you're getting handed a free pizza, AND the recipe [for] exactly how to put the ingredients together. Melissa: And even more so, it's customizable, because people who are working on it... I mean if you sit down with Word or some other extremely faulty Microsoft program and you hate the way it functions, you can't do anything about it, because you're not a Microsoft program. But if you sit down with, I dunno what's a good one? Bill: Abiword. Melissa: Abiword... you can send a request, or if you have the skills you can do it yourself. "This feature bothers me, I'm going to change it." You have that right, if you have the ability. And so what happens is through the cooperation of many people working toward a better end goal, you end up getting a better product. Bill: Exactly. Microsoft isn't interested in fixing bugs. Microsoft is interested in making more money. That's a good comparison. Andy: And so I guess from your point of view, the sort of bugs that one finds in a Microsoft program are built-in in order to make sure that we buy the next version of the program or the operating system. Bill: I wouldn't give them that much credit. A lot of it is incompetence, or bad management, or they just think it's important enough to fix things. Melissa: They have time lines. They don't care about the end product, they have their check. They're not motivated by having to use the program, very probably, they just have to get it done by the ship date. Andy: So when you think of the time-lines with the Linux approach, as I understand it, you have so many different people working on the various products, whether they be say a writing application or a painting application or the entire operating system, that you have hundreds, thousands really, of people who are willing to improve a product continually, without having to meet one of these artificial deadlines. Bill: Exactly. There's never a 1.0 version and a 2.0 version, there's a 1.0 version, a 1.0.1, 1.0.2, 1.1, 1.1.1, and so forth. There's all these continuous upgrades, and that adds to the end usability. You don't have to wait 6 months for the next version, if you want to live on the edge, you can download the latest version. It might crash, because it's not done, but you get to test out the coolest stuff that's being worked on. Andy: Right. Well let's take a break, and hear an example of the Linux Users' Group of Davis promoting themselves with the next Public Service Announcement. While we listen to this, I'll ask those of you at home to, if you have questions for Peter Salzman, Bill Kendrick or Melissa, I encourage you to give us a call here at 530-752-2777. We will address those questions and talk about the issue of simplicity, when we return to "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." PSA: The Linux Users' Group of Davis, or LUGOD, is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the Linux computer operating system and other Open Source products, as an alternative to expensive, proprietary and monopolistic software. LUGOD meets in Davis on the first Tuesday and third Monday of each month. For more information, visit LUGOD's website at LUGOD.org. Or contact Bill Kendrick at [phone number] or via e-mail at: [e-mail]. Andy: Well, we're back on the air. This is Dr. Andy of "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." My guests this hour are Peter J. Salzman, Bill Kendrick and Melissa, of LUGOD, the Linux Users' Group of Davis. Now, as a computer user, and frankly as a Macintosh user, one thing that I really appreciate about most of the programs I use and about the operating system is its simplicity. That I know that if I drop something off in the trash, I can understand these metaphors. The graphical user interface - it makes sense to me. And I think that one reason why, for instance, the iMac was so popular (it was release a couple years ago), was that it seemed like almost the Volkswagen of computers. That anyone could buy one, and make sense of the computer itself. You all have been talking quite comfortably about, say, if a program doesn't make sense to you, then improve it. And that you're much closer to the really baseline of the code. I think for a lot of users, they'd be scared of that. When they say "If I'm working with a program, and it doesn't make sense to me, I wouldn't know how to improve it." And some users would have trouble even contacting who to improve it, especially if it would be Microsoft. And so we're left with this question of simplicity, what do you say to those users out there who say "I'm no computer expert, I wouldn't know how to take the back off my computer"? What do you want to tell these particular people who are interested in simplicity and usability when it comes to an operating system or the programs available. Melissa: I don't know exactly the answer to this, but I AM one of those users. I don't care about how my computer works, I just want it to work. If left on my own, without Bill and without the other friends that I have who are very interested in computers and making them function, I would probably have a very old Macintosh that didn't really work properly, and I might not check my e-mail... at all. I'm gonna have to let someone else talk about how to make it functional for users who are at my level. But, my point is, that with the graphical environment and with the programs that are available, it can be made for the very low technical-end user to be comfortable with it, as long as someone else is taking care of the problems. Andy: Right. And I guess that's part of the revolution of the Internet of the last, say, 5 years, especially - is that the Internet is not merely a place for science geeks, but rather for everyone who wants to shop or communicate or send images or videos. And that increasingly the focus is on usability - that if a website isn't made in such a way that it makes sense how it works, to an average, inexperienced user, that the user will go elsewhere. And it seems to me that one reason that Linux frightens me is that I don't have any of that background, but I also feel like I'm doing just fine negotiating the world of the web, especially, through my web browser, without any of this kind of high-end, arcane knowledge that you all are speaking of. Bill: Oh yeah, for web browsing, Linux is perfectly suitable. You've got Netscape, Opera, there's a number of Open Source products available. There have been magazine articles that compare 12 or 20 different browsers available for Linux. Now, some of them aren't quite up to snuff for most people, but for your Opera and your Netscape and your Konqueror, you're set, you don't need to worry about that. Melissa was talking about how she'd probably have an old Mac. That reminded me of my father, he has a pretty old Mac right now, and I'm still getting calls from him on how to use it, how to do this. And I just tell him, "you know what, I don't use a Mac any more, talk to my brother," because I can't really help him. So, regardless of whether it's Linux or Windows or Mac, people are still going to need a community resource. They're going to need friends, family or a consultant to come in. "OK, how do I backup my computer? How do I get on the Internet?" So, regardless of what operating system you have, I think that's still a problem with computers these days. Andy: That's a very good point, the need for a community of support to help the bare-bones user, and most users. Let's talk about that for a moment, in terms of the community that you all have built at LUGOD. And, again, we're chatting this afternoon, if you've just joined us, with the president, and the PR director, and the secretary for the Linux Users' Group of Davis here on "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour" on KDVS. LUGOD has been active in the community, not only talking to the converted, but also really raising awareness of Linux, and also doing some philanthropic work, some community service, in the City of Davis. Could one of you speak to this particular, important historical philosophy of LUGOD? Pete: We've actually done a bunch of things for Davis, actually. Not all of them even Linux-related. We went to the Yolo County Public Library and noticed that the most recent computer book they had was from 87, or something really absurd like that. So we contacted a bunch of high-profile book publishers, and we got maybe 30, 25-30 books donated to the public library. The publishers were O'Reilly, Coriolis, and New Riders. These are really the cutting-edge publishers of computer books. That was quite a coup for the public library, because they just didn't have the money to buy new computer books, which tend to be kind of expensive. Andy: Absolutely. And it was obviously very smart for those three publishers. Tell me their names again. Pete: Coriolis, New Riders and O'Reilly. Andy: ...because we're talking about them on the air, aren't we? And really appreciating their good work, and their donations. Bill: Coriolis, New Riders and O'Reilly. Andy: Right, thank you. So, excellent. And certainly this show is a big friend to our public library, and I appreciate that. What else have you done that some of our community members in the City of Davis might have encountered? Pete: We ran a fundraiser at Ben and Jerry's for the Electronic Frontier Foundation (the EFF). For those of you who don't know, they're kind of like the ACLU of the electronic world. They handle cases of the underdogs, people who may not have other people to defend them, Internet issues, copyright issues, stuff like that. Very important work - very, very important work. Half the people we met just didn't even know of the existence of the EFF. Andy: And, so again, doing important work in terms of consciousness raising, and letting people know about, really, some of the risks of partaking in this kind of Internet economy. If you'd like to find more about the E.F.F., I encourage you link to their site from the site of this very radio show, that's www.CultureLover.com. From there, you can find out more about EFF. We'll just take a moment to share this message... [ PSA ] Well, it's 5:25. Many of our poetry lovers are just clicking onto KDVS 90.3FM and are hoping to hear some poetry soon, but before we get to that, while we have a few technically-informed people on the air, I wanted to ask you all about "Ginger," a.k.a. "IT", a.k.a. "Segway." I talked about "code-name Ginger" maybe about 8 months ago on this show, and everyone was curious "what exactly is this thing?" The inventor, Kamen, there was some suggestion that he had created a "sterling engine," which would have been a very important creation in terms of fuel-efficiency, and changing some of our dependence on oil, which has come up so often with the conflicts in the Middle East in the last 3 months. Pete: The story that I heard was a personal hovercraft. Andy: A personal hovercraft? And so we have to wonder, was it a hovercraft? There was actually a story about this very topic in the Christian Science Monitor from yesterday's edition titled "It's a scooter! It's a chariot! It's going to fall over!" And the article starts: "It may be as close to we Muggles get to Harry Potter's turbo-charged broom. After a year of hype and hoopla over 'Ginger' and 'IT,' New Hampshire inventor Dean Kamen unveiled 'Segway' yesterday, a motorized two-wheeled scooter with an ability to balance itself, leaving riders to focus on the road, rather than staying upright. Picture the back-end of a young child's tricycle, the steering shaft of scooter, toss in some cutting-edge engineering, and you'll have a pretty good image of Mr. Kamen's latest contribution to human locomotion. 'It's the world's first self-balancing transport,' proclaims the wiry Kamen, 'You stand on this thing - it goes. It's like putting on a pair of magic sneakers.'" So, often we thing of magic when we think of the latest wonder in 21st century technology. Not quite a hovercraft, but it will help you stay upright. What do you all think, when this thing was finally released, did you have opinions on 'Ginger?' Pete: I think that most people had the same reaction: "This is 'IT?!'" From a physics standpoint, I think it's kind of remarkable. I was looking at pictures of it, and apparently it stays upright by the use of gyroscopes. And I looked at pictures, I can't seem to find any place that you'd put a gyroscope, it's kind of a small device. So I'm actually kind of looking forward to looking at it a little bit more, from a physicist's standpoint. Andy: Excellent. Well, let's hear from Bill Kendrick. And as we do, you're assignment, Peter J. Salzman, will be to think about a science fiction equivalent to "IT." Where do we find "IT" in the world of science fiction. I know you're a big fan. See if you can come up with that, while we have Bill Kendrick say something ingenious about "Ginger." Bill: I'm going to disappoint you. I just wonder, can you do tricks on it, like you can with those "Razor" things? Andy: That's a good question. I know that in most versions, you can only get it up to, I don't know- Melissa: 8 miles an hour Andy: I don't know how fast my "Razor" scooter goes, when I'm doing tricks on it, but it's probably a little bit faster than that. Pete: I think "IT" was supposed to have been 15-18 miles per hour. Andy: OK, so that might be the max. And I know that Kamen suggested that it's a safe as walking, but if you've got two "Gingers" that are running into each other on a busy New York sidewalk at 18 miles an hour, I think that might be significant. I don't know if that would be so safe. Bill: Are we going to need yellow lines, yellow stripes, on our sidewalks now, or what? Andy: It's a good question. Steve Jobs of Apple suggests that it will change the way we organize and design our cities. So it'll be interesting to see what the first post-"Ginger" design-influenced city will be. Bill: Wider doors, because everyone's going to get really fat, I think! Melissa: Not even walking anymore! Andy: No one will be walking, and the obesity problem in this country will be further out of control. OK, well you've had enough time, Peter J. Salzman. What sort of interesting analogue to the world of science fiction would you like to offer when thinking about "Ginger?" Pete: Luke Skywalker's sand crawler thing. The land speeder? Andy: The land speeder. Maybe even closer would be that sort of scooter that Darth Maul rides around on in Episode 1. Pete: You have me beat. Andy: Right? I mean, isn't that a little bit closer to "IT?" Because he holds onto the handles, he hovers all over the place. Bill: I'm sorry, I blacked that movie out. Andy: Yeah. It's very cool in the science fiction community to not even acknowledge that that first film was made. Alright, good. Well, we've enjoyed a half hour of tech. talk. I'm going to ask for some poetry from these folks in just a minute. A Perl poem. And that's not the pearl poet - the famous, I'm going to say maybe 12th century poet that wrote "The Pearl" and "Sir Gowan and the Green Knight," not that pearl poem, but actually a different sort of Perl poem that sounds wonderful and also has a function. We will hear some of that, when we return from this musical interlude. [ Musical interlude ] Andy: Well we're back. This is Dr. Andy of "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour." [ PSA reminder ] Well, speaking of poetry (and we'll get to some upcoming LUGOD events in a moment), let's hear what you all brought to the table. Something called "Perl Poetry?" Is that was it is? What's the deal with Perl poetry, can you explain it to us, Peter J. Salzman? Pete: There's a scripting language called "Perl," it's called the 'Swiss Army Knife' of languages, it does just about... well, anything that you'd want it to. It's very versatile. Somewhere along the way, someone figured out that Perl is kind of poetic language. You could write poetry using Perl, which would be a valid program in itself, but would also be poetry, in addition to doing something useful. Andy: So it's a scripting language that could basically serve two functions. One, it could be poetry, and it could also do something. It's interesting, W. H. Auden, in his eulogy for W. B. Yates said that poetry accomplishes nothing, and here you're proving, with a Perl poem, that that perhaps is not true. Well, do you want to give us an example, or do you want me to read one of these examples? Pete: Why don't you read one of the examples. Andy: Let's try first this haiku. Do I read, the - Pete: Not the top line. The haiku was written by a grad. student who was sort of bumming out about how much work he was doing for his dissertation, so he wrote this in frustration. Andy: OK. I think it's an excellent outlet for your frustration. You should certainly write poems when the world is becoming too stressful for you. study, write, study, do review (each word) if time. close book. sleep? what's that? Thank you very much. That was a haiku by a graduate student who has turned to functional poetry. So, what does it mean exactly, that this poem has a function? What would it do? Pete: That actual haiku doesn't do much. It waits for a little bit, and then it exits. It doesn't actually have a function, but, it's a valid program. It compiles, it runs. But it doesn't do much. Andy: So it waits for a while, and then exits. Pete: Yes. Andy: I'd say that's what most of my guests on this show do. So, that's appropriate. Let's hear one more Perl poem. I'll read the poem, and then I'll ask our guests, again, to explain the function. This one begins with the line "sleep." sleep; pipe (drip, drip); listen (drip, drip); kill noises; kill dripping; close pipe soon, NOW; sleep again; listen (drip, drip); sleep (not now); exit (do it); accept destiny, now; alarm neighbors; get the keys now, &; ; crypt of,darkness; not a single; pipe here,anywhere; Thank you very much, alright. So, tell me- Bill: Oh my god! Andy: So tell me about that poem. Pete: I have to admit, I hadn't run that one, but when I get home, that'll be the first thing I do. That's... that was marvelous. Bill: That was ingenious, yeah. Andy: But you people who understand script, can't you just look at it and figure out what it's going to do? Bill: I suck at Perl. Pete: Are you allowed to say that? Andy: "Suck"'s not one of the seven words, so you actually can say that. Pete: Actually, a lot of the stuff is really obfuscated. I really couldn't tell you what it does just by looking at it. I'd probably need some time just to browse what was going on. Off the top, I don't know what it does. Andy: We'll accept that. So it seems that, as with most poetry, we find here that this particular poem encourages contemplation. Probably by yourself. Bill: Contemplation and execution. Andy: Absolutely. Speaking of contemplation, one of our listeners was contemplating our comments about using Star Wars as an analogue for Dean Kamen's "IT" or "Ginger." And she suggested, Nicole, I think, from Davis, suggests that in fact the hovercraft skateboard from "Back to the Future: II" would be more appropriate. What do you all think? Pete: I think it would work. Bill: I'd hate to see skaters up in the air, I'm sorry. Andy: They're still thinking about it. The real skater tries to spend time up in the air, whether he rides a hovercraft or not. Well let's finish now with a favorite poem of one of you. Let's pick you, Peter J. Salzman, president of the L. U. G. of D. And before we go to this poem, actually, tell us what's LUGOD got coming up? Pete: Bill? Bill: December 16th we're holding an "Installfest" workshop. That's an event that we hold on campus, at EUII room 1131. What people do is they actually bring their entire PC system in, and we will help them, for FREE, install and configure the Linux operating system. We do ask that you RSVP beforehand, though, because we don't unlimited space, obviously. And you do have to bring your monitor, and your keyboard, and your mouse, and so forth, because we don't have those to supply. And then the day after, Monday, December 17th, we're hold a meeting in the evening in east Davis, and I actually will be talking about Sharp's new "Zaurus" PDA, which runs Linux and Java, and I just got mine, and it's really cool. Andy: So that's the 17th and the 18th- Bill: 16th and 17th. Andy: It's the 16th and 17th, and if you wanted to find more about those events, where would the listeners go? Bill: Right on the front of our web page. www.LUGOD.org Andy: Excellent, and you can also link to LUGOD from the website of "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour," which is www.CultureLover.com. Ok. Peter, you're about to tell us one of your favorite poems or poets. What do you have in store for us today? Pete: My favorite poet, or one of my favorite poets is Robert Frost. The simplicity of his poems, the imagery that he conjures by using such low-level language, language that everybody can understand, that you don't have to scratch your head and wonder about. Simple language, unpretentious. He does with such simple words what other people have trouble doing with every word in the English language. I've always been impressed by that about him. Andy: I think that's very well put. Is there a particular poem you had in mind? Pete: "The Road Not Taken" Andy: Excellent. Let's hear, now, Robert Frost read "The Road Not Taken," and also thank my guests for the last 40 minutes, representatives of the Linux Users' Group of Davis. We're now saying goodbye to Peter J. Salzman. Pete: Bye Andy. Andy: And Bill Kendrick. Bill: Thanks for having us. Andy: Absolutely, and Melissa. Melissa: Thank you! Andy: Absolutely. We'll have you on again some time, and thanks very much for coming on the program. And now, without further ado, let's hear from Robert Frost. [ poem ] Andy: We're back on "Dr. Andy's Poetry and Technology Hour" and I really do appreciate having those three guests in the studio this afternoon. They were able to talk about Linux, about computers, about technology, but also some wise words about poetry. [ poetry section ] Doug Barbieri (LUGOD member who called in): Also, thanks for having the members of LUGOD. I'm a member of LUGOD as well... Andy: Oh, are you? Doug: ...and it was very nice to have them on the air. Andy: Excellent, well it'll be something that I'm sure we'll do again in the future, and I'll also make sure to share more of LUGOD's community events, because I think it's great that your organization is doing a lot, for instance for local libraries that certainly need our continued support. Doug: It's a marvelous group. Andy: Absolutely. Well have a good afternoon, Doug. Thanks for calling. Doug: Thank you. Andy: Well, we talked earlier how one can use poetry, even the obscure sort of weird Perl poetry to bring a certain amount of relaxation and contemplation into our lives. [ remainder of show ]