Re: [vox] Censorship => signoff
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Re: [vox] Censorship => signoff
It's really too bad about you leaving--I thought you had a lot of
thoughtful and insightful posts.
I'm sorry you took the admonitions personally--however, I would say I
think that giving you such a stern warning and issuing threats may be
going a little overboard, considering how active in the OS comminity you
are--it's not like you never used a mailing list before.
On the flip side, as I understand it, vox-tech was created because of
complaints from folken who only want to receive posts strictly about
technical questions regarding Linux. We can carry on about "off-topic"
posts all we want on vox, but keep the technical questions on vox-tech
and only the technical questions.
The thread in question, since it drifted off of being techincal, should
have been moved to vox. Having said that, I would say that a *better*
way to have handled it would have been to contact you off list, point
out the rules we have, and then ask you to *next time* move an off-topic
thread post to vox.
The administrators should not have threatend you, I agree, but I must
also point out that your language is also threatening. This sort of
bantering will never get anyone to change anything; it will only
accomplish hurting feelings, which is bad.
I would propose that you not quit the lists, that we find a way to work
this out. You are a valuable addition and have good advice to offer.
On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 06:48:06AM +0000, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> As much as this group has to offer, I'm signing off vox & vox-tech
> effective immediately due to the behavior of the list admin.
> First a few points about myself.
> - I've been a Unix user for over 15 years. GNU/Linux for the past
> - I've used, run, FAQ'd, caballed, and designed discussion forums,
> lists, message boards, and the like, also for over 15 years.
> Methods of group communication, discussion, and documentation are a
> topic of both practical and intellectual interest to me. I've even
> known a few people at LUGoD via these means over the entire
> - I've been active in the GNU/Linux and free software community for
> the past five years, and had the pleasure to meet and know many
> people throughout the community at all levels.
> - In meetings, presentations, and activities, LUGoD is the best
> organized and run user groups I've seen. Bar none.
> That said, there is a very serious, and as I've heard from several
> sources, long standing issue with mailing list administration. This
> problem needs fixing badly and soon.
> For the single action of posting a followup comment to the group from
> which a discussion had started, I was accused by the list administrator
> - Cross posted to both lists, which is a big no-no. [Ed: The followup
> was forwarded to the list it had begun on, which the list admin had
> moved it in the first place]
> - Sending non-technical content to vox-tech, which is a big no-no.
> [Ed: See above. Topic drift happens.]
> - Brought up reply-to munging, which is a violation of khendon's rule,
> which is also a huge no-no.
> This was followed with the threat:
> on the next violation of mailing list rules, i'm going to start
> approving your posts. you're very fond of quoting rules which
> frankly don't apply here, or which i feel ambivalent to.
> Being told with a heavy hand that actions whose status vis-a-vis list
> rules is highly debatable at best will result in moderation on next
> instance is far more than simply undiplomatic.
> It's a stifling of free discussion and actively discourages
> participation. It's a violation of norms of respect, trust,
> intellectual honesty, and the fostering of free speech and technical
> debate which are among the foundations of free software. It's simply
> We're living in times at which openness of our institutions --
> government, business, technology, education, and religion --
> particularly for the purposes of internal criticism and review, has been
> badly compromised. It's beyond pitiful that a group of like-minded
> technical folks with shared interests, mostly neighbors, can't evaluate,
> or comment on, their own group, rules, and tools.
> The minute someone starts saying "you can't talk about this or that" the
> alarm bells go off in my head. It's the sign of a sick society.
> I requested an apology for the moderation threat, a withdrawal of the
> threat, and several changes in list policy, including considering
> removal of the current list administrator. Having had not received same
> after 24 hours, I'm unsubscribing from LUGoD lists and ceasing
> participation in an organization I can no longer trust or respect,
> much as it pains me to say this.
> I remain an active participant in other area LUGs, including SVLUG,
> BALUG, and NBLUG. You'll also find me participating in discussions
> elsewhere on the Web, particularly at http://z.iwethey.org/ and other
> channels associated with IWeThey, a group of technical professionals
> I've known for years.
> 1. Khendon's rule is a heuristic for determining that a topic thread
> has exhausted usefulness. The leap in logic of applying this to
> any discussion of a particular topic on a mailing list escapes me.
> Karsten M. Self <email@example.com> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
> What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
> Reading is a right, not a feature
> -- Kathryn Myronuk http://www.freesklyarov.org
> vox mailing list
R. Douglas Barbieri
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